The Forum Has Spoken! An and a confession...
The lone vote for the vintage Waterbourne was me own. And, up until this morning, that's how I've been wearin' the watch.

But, in accordance with the 2-to-1 landslide , I've swapped on the Navy NATO..



..and that's what she looks like even as I type.

for your me Brothers!

I voted for navy blue but I also like the grey. (n/t)

They all look good, Ricky. I really like the black, blue, and grey ones...switch em up!!!! (n/t)

Fascinating. >
I thought you said something to the effect of:

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Ricky Lee
And, while I'm not a big fan of resin straps in general, I find this one to be far less objectionable than most. Actually, it wears Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr8! Indeed, I'm digging the look enough that I feel no need to swap on a NATO straightaway, which is what I expected.

But I must be mistaken, because here you are, talkin' 'bout NATOs again..

I think I like the navy blue best, but black is a close second. The rest just don't work, to my eye. Something with a red stripe might be PERFECT, but you don't want to keep buying more NATOs, you want to put that $$ towards a nice bracelet, right?

Re:I thought you said something to the effect of:
Yes, but what I didn't count on was...

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Ricky Lee
..a burning desire to know whether or not this watch had the "fat" spring bars. As it turns out, it does.

The spring bar thing, don't discount it.

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Smaug
Something with a red stripe might be PERFECT, but you don't want to keep buying more NATOs..

On the contrary! I feel a burning need to expand my collection of Regimental Pattern NATO straps!

Only problem is, the really Deluxe ones rival the price I am accustomed to payin' for entire watches.

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Smaug
..you want to put that $$ towards a nice bracelet, right?

And that TOO!

How's a Poor WIS to keep up wi' it all?

Re:  How's a Poor WIS to keep up wi' it all?
Inherit a shitload of $$$!

First of all, congrats Brother Ricky! That's a sharpie! 2ndly, definately Bond-NATO G10 (n/t)

I voted navy blue, as it complements the bezel, but my second choice is the Bond. (n/t)

Not spying I swear
You already have my two cents, I thing Brad nailed the pepsi bezel/OD green combo BTW thanks for the props but you have my for PMWF WIS of the year!

Leave it where it is and monitor it for a week.
7S26 movements have to be adjusted in pico c**t-hair increments also. The early timing results may not be the same if left to "settle-in" for a few days. Also if you touch it back towards the negative direction again, you may spend 2 weeks trying to get it back to being as good as +20 again.

Re: 7S26 movements have to be adjusted in pico..increments also.
That's what I was afraid of..

But thanks for confirming!

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Chris L
The early timing results may not be the same if left to "settle-in" for a few days.

Gotcha. I'll give it a full 3 days, same as I did when determining the original going rate.

However, barring some off-the-wall (and highly unlikely) result over the next day-and-a-half, I'll almost certainly Call It Good. Right now, some ~34 hours on, it checks +21 sec.

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Chris L
Also if you touch it back towards the negative direction again, you may spend 2 weeks trying to get it back to being as good as +20 again.

And I already got that T-shirt.

Thanks again Bro. Chris!

I'll bet you run a lot of ignition advance in the Miata, too! I just adjusted my new Monster...
But I implemented some pretty big adjustments. I wore it all day Christmas day and then, when I woke up yesterday (with in still on my wrist) I was astonished to realized I had slept in so late. Glanced at my wife's bedside clock (I don't need one because I'm alwasy wearing a watch of some form )... and realized my damn brand-spanking new Monster had picked up an HOUR AND A HALF in 12 hours! You know, there was a moment the day before where I noticed the time was incorrect but I figured I must have set it wrong... which, wouldn't be the first time I have set a watch precisely and hour wrong, or precisely 5, 10, or 15 minutes off.

So, I backed off on the regulator a "tad" but the balance wheel moved so anemically... very a rather weak tick. But after timing it over 5-6 hours it seemed a-okay. Unfortunately, by dinner time I glanced at the new obsession on my wrist and noticed it had stopped comeplete!

Case back back off, I adjusted the curb, and then re-adjusted the regulator back to something closer to neutral. THEN, to make sure I was in the ball park, did a "listen test" against a Seiko 5 that I know to be uber reliable. Finally, my Monster had a strong beat that matched the Seiko 5, as far as I could discern. Everytime I look at my watch now, it remind me a little bit of my Sprite... when, before pulling on the starter cable I would quietly chant, "please start, please start, please... there it goes!"

As of right now, my Monster has gained about 22 seconds since my last tinkering... and that, as some family from old country used to say, "Isa goud enuff!"

I'd like to think it's now as reliable as the old Toyota Crown in the background of this picture...



I guess that's all a wordy way of saying, "I empathize, but I don't know..." And, I also suspect you are at a reasonable crossroads to screw things back together and leave it alone!

Also, that's a cool 6309!

Would you believe I've never even CHECKED the timing on the Miata?
I'm serious. Whatever the computer's running, it seems A-OK, so I see no reason to mess with it.

Now, that '63 Valiant OTOH...

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Nuvolari
..my damn brand-spanking new Monster had picked up an HOUR AND A HALF in 12 hours!

WTH? I was under the impression that a regulator didn't even have that much range of adjustment. We discussed that in the Mars Watch thread a few weeks ago, and the general consensus was that the average regulator didn't have anywhere near a 39 min/day range, never mind 3 hours a day!

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Nuvolari
..I adjusted the curb''

Curb? Lost me there...

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Nuvolari
As of right now, my Monster has gained about 22 seconds since my last tinkering..

At this point, I believe I'd definitely call that one Good!

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Nuvolari
I guess that's all a wordy way of saying, "I empathize, but I don't know..."

Well, I appreciate the sympathy, anyway.

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Nuvolari
And, I also suspect you are at a reasonable crossroads to screw things back together and leave it alone!

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Nuvolari
Also, that's a cool 6309!

mate. I'd be lyin' if I didn't admit I'm diggin' the heck out of it.

Now, that '63 Valiant OTOH...
Do you still have that Valiant?

What engine is it running? The venerable 225 slant six, or something more like a 318 or a 440 six-pack crammed in there?

Re: Do you still have that Valiant?
You bet!

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JFK3531
What engine is it running? The venerable 225 slant six..

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JFK3531
..or something more like a 318 or a 440 six-pack crammed in there?

Nah, plan is to keep it bone-stock, complete with 3-on-the-tree and 13" tires. I do need to work on the cosmetics, but it's rock-solid, mechanically.

Beautiful car, Ricky. Nice work!  (n/t)

mate. (n/t)

<<Curb? Lost me there...>> Opps! Wrong term: with 2 levers it's the small one that adjusts beat error
Assuming the upper lever adjusts beat rate...

Although, I see just one levers on the escapement of your 6309

For me, it's a lot more craft than science!

OK, gotcha. What Reto calls the "index stud" in his tutorial. But..
..you must have neglected to read the Official PMWF Tutorial!

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Reto
And once more: do not move the index stud, unless you have a timing machine. Because if you move the index stud, you might change the isochronisms of your watch, the tic-toc might become an imbalanced tiiiiic-toc-tiiiiiic-toc meaning that the angles of the oscillation to the right and to the left are not the same any more.

You're not supposed to move the index stud!

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Nuvolari
Although, I see just one levers on the escapement of your 6309

No, they're both there.

The index stud (the lower lever) on my 6309 has a little {|-shaped gizmo on it. Have no idea wassup wi' dat.. but I ain't a-gonna mess around with it!

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Nuvolari
For me, it's a lot more craft than science!

Same here.. But I've been doing it the way Reto describes in the tutorial (linked above) for many, many moons. It works!

Your a brave man Ricky Lee!!!! I agree with smaug....
I wouldnt have had the guts to mess with it.....but....like smaug said...let it go for a while, storing it on its caseback....see what happens....I have heard that the 6309 regulators are very sensitive....and even the slightest, untrained (on Seiko 6309) hand may give it too much......good luck!!!!

Re: I have heard that the 6309 regulators are very sensitive..
Ah! See, that's exactly what I'm trying to determine. Thanks mate, it's a start.

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dano0
I wouldnt have had the guts to mess with it..

Ain't Nothin' But A Thang.

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dano0
..let it go for a while, storing it on its caseback..

Nope. I'm convinced that's the wrong approach. I'm not interested in how the watch goes when stored in a static position (any static position). I'm only concerned about the real-world on-the-wrist going rate.

I think wear it for a day and see how it is. I know what you mean about slow vs fast. (n/t)

I'd leave 'er go.
Also, do remember that the rate will vary depending on what position it is in. So if it is running +18s while flat and upside down, maybe it will run a bit slower in other positions?

I think you should put the back back on it and wear it for a day or two to see what the in-use rate is. Then, store it in several positions over several nights and chart how it runs. For instance, you might find that it runs +18s when you're wearing it, but -10s when stored overnight crown down? Something like that, where it will mostly even out.

Professional watchmakers sometimes pick their poisons like this. The most common positions during daily wear are crown down and dial up. But if one of the other positions causes a gain or loss that cancels out that daily wear error at night, you're all set!

I probably didn't phrase it well, but I think you get the idea.

Re: Also, do remember that the rate will vary depending on what position it is in.
Which is why I wear the watch while timing it.

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Smaug
So if it is running +18s while flat and upside down, maybe it will run a bit slower in other positions?

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Smaug
I think you should put the back back on it..

Ahhhh.. it is back on.

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Smaug
..and wear it for a day or two to see what the in-use rate is.

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Smaug
Then, store it in several positions over several nights and chart how it runs. For instance, you might find that it runs +18s when you're wearing it, but -10s when stored overnight crown down? Something like that, where it will mostly even out.

That's a waste of time. This is an unadjusted movement, and nothing I do will turn it into a positionally adjusted movement. Far better to wear the watch while timing it - as I'm doing - so that the positional variations average out. You get a "real world" result, that way.

I think you misunderstand my question. I'm not asking how to regulate the watch. It's hardly the first watch I've regulated, ye ken. And, indeed, I have the routine down to my own very specific methodology.

Rather, what I'm asking, of me brothers who have previous experience with this precise movement (the Seiko 6309), is if they have found the regulation system to be overly-sensitive. 'cause mine sure seems to be! Might even say it's "twitchy", as the amount I moved the regulator arm produced an effect maybe 3 or 4 times what I generally observe.

Re: Also, do remember that the rate will vary depending on what position it is in.
You will not turn it into an adjusted movement, but you will know how it is going to run in different positions. Whether it has been adjusted in all those positions or not doesn't matter.

What matters is that it is going to behave the same way each time, in each position. So if it runs -20s crown up, and it runs +23s in your daily wear, you know to take if off at night and set it down crown up, and it will even out in the morning!

If you refuse to take your watch off at night, then I guess I can't help you here, hehehe.

Wow, that little back-hand flip by Brees, right as he was about to get sacked was BRILLIANT. (~ 3 min. to go, 3rd quarter)

Edit: His second attempt didn't go over well. Resulting in the interception and TD. I bet he feels dumb for trying it again.

Re: ..but you will know how it is going to run in different positions.
OK, perhaps I was premature in my assessment of your advice. Satisfying one's intellectual curiosity is never a waste of time.

Thing is, I'm really not interested in the static positional variations of this watches going rate.

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Smaug
So if it runs -20s crown up, and it runs +23s in your daily wear, you know to take if off at night and set it down crown up, and it will even out in the morning!

But I'm not willing to follow such a regimen on a routine basis. Would you?

Remember, once the honeymoon's over, I'm not likely to wear this watch for more than a couple of days running. So all I'm interested in is the real-world, on-the-wrist going rate. As such, it behooves me to not let the watch sit in a static state at any point during the timing process.

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Smaug
..then I guess I can't help you here.

You catch on quick...

I'd have left it alone but tweak it since you're already tweaking it.  (n/t)

Nice work! I'm gonna have to visit a timing machine since, as you know, I touched the Forbiden Lever!
Gaining about 60 seconds a day now... damn it! But -better fast than slow!

"Forbidden Lever". I love it!

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Nuvolari
But -better fast than slow!

Yup! Within reason...

Good job  (n/t)

Not that shocking. What, a WIS that is obsessed? Nah. (n/t)

You did it right...
If you can see it move, it probably was over-adjusted.

Nice! (n/t)

Well as long as you didn't go and buy a kinetic
But really you ought to be proud, as it seems all are in agreement that regulating that movement is a PIA at best. Congrats, cautiously that is

Not much chance of that.

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Cleans Up
But really you ought to be proud, as it seems all are in agreement that regulating that movement is a PIA at best. Congrats, cautiously that is

Well.. shucks. I'm almost embarrassed to admit it, but it's looking like it's gonna be considerably better than my first estimate.

Right now, after... ah, call it 49-1/2 hours, it checks +9 seconds.

I can totally live with that.

We always wonder why Seikos run fast from the factory
and I think you've lit upon it. The regulating arm design does not have very good capability for fine adjustment. I would think they could figure it out better in the factory though. Some machine that is capable of adjusting it better than the +20s that has been typical. These are watches after all. Accuracy is of huge importance. A well-regulated mechanical watch can be as accurate as a cheap quartz. If I could change one thing about the Seiko 7S26/36, it would be to give it a way to regulate it more precisely.

They came up with that Magic Lever for bidirectional winding, why can't they come up with an affordable way to regulate their movements to within +/- 5s?

Re: A well-regulated mechanical watch can be as accurate as a cheap quartz.
Ahhhh.. in certain specific (very unusual!) cases, I reckon so.

Thing is, when you look at commodity quartz movements (read also "low end"), their accuracy level can - and does! - vary tremendously.

I'm most familiar with the SII/TMI PC21..



..aka the "Tom Swift Standard Movement". I routinely buy these things by the 12-pack, and have built maybe a couple of hundred watches using them. There are more than a few in my permanent collection and so, yes, I have subjected multiple examples to long-term accuracy tests. I've seen some that approach HEQ in their going rate.. on the order of +/- 6 to 8 seconds between spring-forward and fall-back. OTOH, some may gain or lose that same 6-8 seconds in a mere week or two!

Still, any mechanical that can match the worst going-rate I've ever seen from a PC21 is one very exceptional mechanical movement indeed. And I'm talking Hell-freezing-over exceptional here!

So, IOW, I take your hypothesis to be mostly the well-intentioned but exaggerated cheer-leading of an Avid Mechanical Fan.

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Smaug
The regulating arm design does not have very good capability for fine adjustment. If I could change one thing about the Seiko 7S26/36, it would be to give it a way to regulate it more precisely. They came up with that Magic Lever for bidirectional winding, why can't they come up with an affordable way to regulate their movements to within +/- 5s?

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Smaug
These are watches after all. Accuracy is of huge importance.

Ah, come on! It ain't that important to me, you, or the Average WIS.

It it was, we'd all buy Quartz exclusively.

Re: We always wonder why Seikos run fast from the factory
I just got a new watch that has a 7s36 movement and I've been checking for accuracy against an auto updating cell phone (I figured if it was constantly updating it would have to be at least a fairly consistent control device, but definitely not scientific), and the watch has been -11 sec./72hrs. I was pretty amazed at that. So that's a smidge less that -4sec/day. Also during that 72 hrs I was not wearing the watch at night, and I was laying it case down during that time. Last night I left it crown down and it seemed that it was only -2, perhaps -3 off. (Measuring only every 24 hrs. is hard to really get a read on it though). I'm curious to see what it is in the next 72 hrs while leaving it on the crown at night. Maybe I just lucked out, or maybe it's just going through a break-in period and it will creep slowly more and more off.

That's exceptional performance!
Though, again, I'd much rather have the watch on the positive (gaining) side than the negative (losing time).

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ontime
..it was only -2, perhaps -3 off. (Measuring only every 24 hrs. is hard to really get a read on it though).

It really is. Far better to measure the going-rate over a 2 or 3 day period and average it. IOW, you're doing it right, IMHO.

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ontime
..maybe it's just going through a break-in period and it will creep slowly more and more off.

Well.. that's a whole other controversy right there.

But it may well be...

Another cautious WooHOO! from me then! Let's hope it keeps the same performance over time.  (n/t)

Phewww, I thought you were going to confess that you wandered of...
...to the dark side and bought a RMW

Re: .....to the dark side and bought a RMW
Nah, I'm done with RMW buying for the foreseeable future.

Mind you, I won't say "never again"!

But, given the state of me pocketbook , it'll be a long, long while...

Nice work, Ricky. Enjoy!!! (n/t)

Great job Ricky  (n/t)

Re: Regulating a vintage Seiko 6309-729A Part 3 aka Another Shocking Confession.
Thanks for giving credit Ricky. Maybe I will push my luck a bit on the other two things...

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Ricky Lee
Honestly, I'm not sure where to go from here. The variation I'm seeing is most likely positional error, I reckon, so part of wants to time it in various static states (dial-up, crown-up, etc) in order to get a better idea of what's going on.

This sounds familiar too...

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Ricky Lee
But then another part of me wants to synch a more accurate reference watch to it, and keep going.

I still don't understand this. Maybe you can explain it to me again. You can stop the seconds hand on that watch and sync it to atomic time, or the closest you've got to it. No need for any of the arithmetic funny-business.

The only problem with this whole situation is that with the watch running that accurately, it will seem like a shame to take it off and give due attention to your other watches. Glad to see you're enjoying your newest acquisition.

Re: Thanks for giving credit Ricky.
's only right! Whatever faults I have, I always give credit.. when it's due.

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Smaug
Maybe I will push my luck a bit on the other two things...

Hey, "Strike while the iron's hot"..

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Smaug
(..most likely positional error, I reckon..)

This sounds familiar too...

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Smaug
I still don't understand this. Maybe you can explain it to me again. You can stop the seconds hand on that watch and sync it to atomic time..

Nope, no can do. The 6309 is not a hacking movement! Nor does the "Caveman hacking method" you mentioned (applying back-pressure to the crown in the time-set position) work with this specific example.

It's a pity, really, that a watch that goes this well can't be hacked...

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Smaug
The only problem with this whole situation is that with the watch running that accurately, it will seem like a shame to take it off and give due attention to your other watches.

LOL! Right!

Not a bad "problem" to have, though..

Re: Thanks for giving credit Ricky.

Ah, OK. thanks for the info. I thought they all did. Does it mean that "faux hacking" started with the 7S26?

It's even more complicated than that.
Whether "faux hacking" works or not doesn't depend on the design of the movement, but rather on the specific fit of the components in any given movement's going train. IOW, "faux hacking" may work A-OK on one 7S26, but not at all on the next 7S26.

The faux-hack is a question of forces. >>
>> What is stronger, the backwards force coming through the cannon pinion, or the forward force through the mainspring barrel?

All of my 7s26's behave thusly: They will faux-hack when I pick them up and give them a few swirls. But if the power reserve is up from wearing the watch all day, the faux hack is a no-go.

So, it is possible that your 6309 will show the same behavior, when it winds down

Yet MORE complicated, then!

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Dave Murphy
What is stronger, the backwards force coming through the cannon pinion, or the forward force through the mainspring barrel?

Ah! I think I truly understand the phenomenon, now. I admit I was wingin' it, before.

Reto and I discussed this at some length, many moons ago. I spent like 10 minutes, searching every applicable text string my mind could conceive, and was unable to turn it up. I can only conclude that thread was lost in the "mini database purge" of early 2009. I (seem) to clearly remember him describing it as a "fit" issue, but stand corrected...

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Dave Murphy
All of my 7s26's behave thusly: They will faux-hack when I pick them up and give them a few swirls. But if the power reserve is up from wearing the watch all day, the faux hack is a no-go.

So, it is possible that your 6309 will show the same behavior, when it winds down.

I'll try it! One more incentive to let this watch wind down & start over. It's all going to hell anyway. Right now, roughly an hour short of 8 days in, it checks +7 seconds.

Thanks Doc!

I suppose that the >>
>> geometry of the pallet jewel/teeth of the escape wheel have much to do with whether or not a certain kind of movement will "faux-hack".

But within a certain movement type, I find my previous observation to be true.

I'm sure that there are movements out there which will not "faux-hack". Is the 6309 one of them? You will let us know, I'm sure.

Re: I'm sure that there are movements out there which will not "faux-hack". Is the 6309 one of them?
Well.. if the 7S26 will, I'm betting that the 6309 will, too. Like as not I've just never tried it with the power reserve at a suitably low level.

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Dave Murphy
You will let us know, I'm sure.

I will!

Very cool! One of the things I really enjoy about mechanicals is figuring out >>>
what I have to do with them overnight to keep them as accurate as possible. For example, my Mako runs a bit fast on the wrist during the day, but slows down a bit when put crown up overnight, so that helps keep it pretty close. I put my Alpha GMT face up at night because it actually slows a tiny bit when worn. (I should probably try regulating that one).

You are done! Congrats, and enjoy. (n/t)